Traditional Medicine in India: Less About Medicine, More About India

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Akshay S Dinesh

30 Jul 2023, 08:01:5130/07/2023
to Mfccircle
Kiran Kumbhar makes the most sensible argument against advocates of Ayurveda (disguised in the term AYUSH) in India – that their advocacy is steeped in hypocrisy.

https://kirankumbhar.substack.com/p/traditional-medicine-india-history-ayurveda

Requesting everyone (especially those who raise the politics of knowledge argument to justify AYUSH) to read this and question their own biases.

ASD

prab...@yahoo.com

30 Jul 2023, 11:33:1830/07/2023
to MFC
It seems you have read your own ideas into a short piece. Let me humbly read it my way!!!
Not all who are interested in traditional Santal (tribal) medicine or Siddha or Dai practices subscribe to  the idea that Sanskrit or Ayurveda are better or first. The questions around the historicity of nadi pariksha were brought to my notice last year by Dr Jayanta Bhattacharya, a doctor at Raiganj, a post graduate and doctoral student in history and also son of a Sanskrit teacher. Kiran is right there and in most of his points about the involvement of Dalit (and may I add tribal) communities in study and use of both plant and animal as well as metals and inorganic substances resources for treatment. Some of these spread by sea route to rome, Greece ("Unani') and later Arabs. Similarly plants sourced outside India- (adimadhuram is not that common even in the Himalayas) entered local treatment lists (pharmacoepias of IMPCOPS- Indian Medical Practitioners Cooperative Society are a useful reference).
Much good has been subsumed by the Hindutva project and confusion as well as ridiculous claims are being touted. However it would not be advisable to throw out the proverbial baby with the panchagavi water.
A few useful medicines- quinine, digitalis, vasaka, wintergreen from the willow (later modified and chemically produced as aspirin) have entered modern medicine. Though corporations would prefer to make huge profits out of ever newer products. They have also entered Ayurveda companies and  through them run medical education in "ayush"- promoting the unscientific claims to enter newer markets
Prabir

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ritupriyajnu

30 Jul 2023, 18:08:0830/07/2023
to prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
I  would agree with almost every word of what Kiran Kumbhar says in this piece. 

But I would also think it more appropriate and helpful to current discourse if the following points were also considered:
1. That what he is referring to is the state-led discourse that privileges Ayurveda (and Yoga) in the name of AYUSH, gives relatively lesser attention to the other 6 components of the acronym AYUSH, and actively delegitimises 'traditional' knowledge and practices of various communities that may or may not find place in the 
recognised textual traditional systems. Thereby he is relegating all who discuss politics of health knowledge in relation to 'modern' bio-medical reductionism and the implications of Euro-centric colonial history, as being part of the Hindutva brigade, the thinking that  underlies the state-led approach.  That is probably being unfair to the several strands of thinking on the pluralism of health knowledge and its origins at various points of time in history.

2.  It may be more fruitful if the complexity of the politics of 'traditional' knowledge is represented with all its  'messiness' in much the same way that his own piece about hospitals and society highlights in the link below

3. While agreeing completely that we must take a comprehensive historical view of  "global plus regional plus local flows of ideas",  What we need to watch out for in this formulation is the possible continuation of  international (neo-colonial) hegemony despite the rising assertion of LMICs and nationalisitic hegemony over the 'local' . It is only if we are able to accept the vast diversity of knowledge and practice (the 'messiness'),  and the validity of bottom-up processes for societal organisation of knowledge and practice,  that this perspective can be potentially liberative. 

4. The exclusionary claim of modern medicine as 'science', which at best acknowledges attribution of some of its ideas and some pharmaceutical leads to marginalised 'traditional' societies, and insists that only when verified by its criteria can any knowledge be considered more than 'belief',  has to be called out for its hegemonic characteristics. As a historical process that has  influenced all of human knowledge about health and medicine,  with the growth of modern bio-medicine as part of the capitalist  development  enterprise,  does it not merit looking at what other marginalised knowledges offer 'in their own frame'?  While the ibuprofen is what I too reach out for when my knee hurts, I also apply ayurvedic oils and indulge in folk forms of massage for longer term relief and wellbeing.  And I am sure I am not the only one doing this! This is being denigrated as 'mixopathy' in present discourse. It will be of interest to know how Kiran Kumbhar, and others, view this patient-led, culturally-attuned practice?


with introspection and curiosity,
Ritu 



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Dr. Ritu Priya, MBBS, Ph.D. 
Professor,  Centre of Social Medicine and Community Health,
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi-110067. 
Phone: +91-11-26704615 (off), 26742102 (res), 9313350186 (m) 

Akshay S Dinesh

30 Jul 2023, 19:19:1130/07/2023
to ritupriyajnu, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Thanks for responding with introspection and curiosity, Ritu Priya. I agree with points 1-3 without caveats — it is definitely a piece aimed at one particular strand of advocacy and doesn't account for the messiness.

On point 4, however, I believe there will be a deep standing disagreement between us (as it exists between R Srivats and me). I was thinking earlier of writing an additional piece considering how this anti-science argument will be raised in mfc, which I was going to give the title "My science is my science" (and not Western/capitalist thing like you're arguing). I believe deeply that the practice of observing the world around us and making inferences based on it is not to be attributed to the "Newtonian paradigm", but to the basic scientific and rational temperament that exists in all animals including human beings. Kiran writes this: ". Instead of thinking narrowly in terms of the history of Indian or Chinese etc. medicine, scholars are nudging us to think in terms of the history of human knowledge, or of “knowing the world”, as the title of an introductory history of science course at Harvard University goes". I favor this view of looking at science because that's how I've developed the understanding of science — equally from MK Gandhi and equally from Daniel Dennett (and equally from rejection of Vivekananda).

And therefore when I'm insisting that certain forms of "medicine" are bullshit, I'm insisting that they have to be verified by my own sense of the right way of creating knowledge about the world. Is it influenced by Western philosophers and thinkers? Yes. Does that mean I don't get influenced by philosophers and thinkers from LMIC? No. So, when you say that my "exclusionary claims" have "hegemonistic characteristics", I feel like you're not acknowledging the fact that I am a human being with agency who can develop a scientific mind and rational temperament of my own.

Here is exactly how I think about traditional medicine:

Do the explanations on how they work make sense to me? No.
Do these explanations on how they work make sense for (at least a few) others? Yes, there are people who believe in Gods and spirits and all kinds of stories about the universe.
Does it make sense to acknowledge this reality of how "messy" people's beliefs are? Yes.
Should it guide our public health policy? Yes.
Should we discard scientific temperament to make sense of these? No.
Should we argue in the public domain in ways that lead to solidification of these irrational beliefs and in ways that discourage people from asking questions and thinking rationally? No.

Should we call a spade a spade? Yes.
Should we acknowledge that a spade can do more than just digging? Also, yes.

ASD


ritupriyajnu

30 Jul 2023, 22:15:0430/07/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Dear Akshay,

I don't know why you thought I am not acknowledging anyone's agency including yours. You have every right to your agency in understanding of science and the scientific temper, and to espouse it to the full.

I only want to clarify what I wrote earlier and it seems to have been misunderstood;

1. The 'messiness' I referred to was about multilayered societal reality and organisation and certainly not about people's beliefs. As I understood what is said in the link of Kiran Kumbhar's other piece that I had given earlier,  he is also referring to organisational principles of a neatly regimented social organisation vs an organisational principle that lets diverse perceptions and practice co-exist.  It would be good to continue a conversation on this. 

2. I do not think we need to give up the scientific temper to  seriously engage with and examine plural knowledges.  In fact, as has been argued, if we find that  practice of some traditional knowledge works empirically, then it is imperative by the scientific temper to try and examine how and why it works and only then make any assessment of it.  Also, as you say,  all people at all times have a rationality, then understanding that is probably meaningful rather than labeling one as 'knowledge' and the other as 'belief'.  That is why I put it in quotes.

3. When I imputed that modern bio-medicine has a capitalist baggage, I was only applying the principle that Kiran Kumbhar iterates and is widely accepted in the discipline of science and technology studies-- that knowledge generation is deeply influenced by the political, social, economic and cultural context of the historical time in which it happens, and in turn it influences all these spheres.  That does not invalidate it, only tells us that it will have its perspective and content colored by the context which has to be understood as such.  

Also, thanks for endorsing that the piece is only about one strand in the discourse on traditional medicine and  thereby, in my reading of it that means it is reductionist and not a comprehensive view about the discourse. 

Best,
Ritu

Akshay S Dinesh

31 Jul 2023, 00:04:4031/07/2023
to ritupriyajnu, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Well, your imagination of the peaceful coexistence of beliefs and knowledge sounds very democratic and ideal in theory. 

But, when it leads to situations like endorsing the use of "home remedies and traditional medicine" for dealing with COVID-19 (as is done in https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-023-01741-8 ), that's when I start failing to comprehend it.

ASD

ritupriyajnu

31 Jul 2023, 09:15:1031/07/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Maybe, if you think of  the spectrum of illness and epidemiology that the COVID-19 pandemic was comprised of,  and a PHC approach for catering to the varied requirements, it may become more comprehensible, even if we do not come to an agreement on it.

Best,
Ritu

Akshay S Dinesh

31 Jul 2023, 09:36:4131/07/2023
to ritupriyajnu, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
On my way to work today I'll be seeing, as I've been for the last many months, a tent with the board Himalayan special remedies which list HIV, cancers, infertility and various other special diseases that can be cured there. I'll take a picture and post here later. But, I have to ask you, does "bullshit" exist in your vocabulary at all?

You're saying COVID-19 has been a spectrum. I'm sure you similarly acknowledge traditional medicine and home remedies is a spectrum.

Did you mean to endorse the whole spectrum of traditional medicine and home remedies for COVID-19 or did you leave out the messiness like Kiran did?

Which of the following are you endorsing in what you've written?
- Coronil
- Ringing plates
- Ivermectin
- Hydroxychloroquine
- Favipiravir
- Cow dung (literal sister of bullshit)
- steam inhalation
- ginger
- turmeric
- alcohol
- doxycycline
- different teas
- immunity booster supplement (whatever that contains)
- lemon juice
- urine
- yagas and yajnas
- singing "go corona go corona go"
- and so on...

All of them? Some of them? Do you draw a line at all?

ASD

prab...@yahoo.com

31 Jul 2023, 10:06:2431/07/2023
to MFC
Was ringing plates your definition of AYUSH/
Or Ivermectin?

Obviously most of these are unscientific.
Some like Doxycycline and steam inhalation were experimental at the beginning. At the time there was no vaccine. And one wonders if any "treatment" or prevention (eg masks, handwashing) is very effective.

The useful treatment was ventilation in somes serious patients
Vasundhara and our friends at Mayo brought out a simple management protocol that was useful and relevant for milder cases.

But there are some rather extreme personal ("do you') comments or is it very literary rhetoric?
Cows are often a reference to the female.

Prabir

rakhal.gaitonde

1 Aug 2023, 15:41:5101/08/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, ritupriyajnu, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Dear Friends,

In Kirans piece he specifically refers to the "present TM discourse" [in his second paragraph]. I would thus assume that he is as Ritu ji pointed out referring to the establishment led valorization of Traditional medicine and I have aboslutely no problem with what he has said, and do endorse it.

What I would like to highlight however is that the politics of knowledge stream that is being referred to - and which I am assuming include those like me who continue to engage with various forms of knowledge - clearly is different from and predates the dominance of "the present TM discourse". In fact the politics of knowledge raises many of the points that Kiran raises. The dominance of the textual Ayurveda tradition, and the suppression of various folk knowledges is something we all talk about. Darshan Shankar, Hari Rammurthy, Unni and others have been working inclusively with folk healers to document their traditions - not just a romantic gestures or even driven by the patent wars....but as a critique of the dominant Ayurveda traditions. Ayurveda itself (like Allopathy) and all forms of knowledge is no homogenous unit or block.

In terms of an approach to science - I see as my starting point a historical perspective on the current understanding of what science is. Even as Kiran points out that textual Ayurveda is probably only a few hundred years old, so in fact is the current model of scientific enquiry! Philosophers of science including Thomas Kuhn have influentially pointed about how dominant modes of knowing have relegated many issues as "not worthy of study" - this has also been highlighted by Foucault who talks about the subjugated knowledges.

Anne- Emmanuel Birn in her text book of Global Health - also points out how the subjugation of other forms of medicine by colonial medicine took place on every continent and Kiran nicely highlights this active subjugation in his podcasts on colonial medicine in India.

The question before me then is how do I engage and deploy a science that I know is a historic product? Of course I will use it, I will abide by it - It is the best tool I have. But it is certainly not perfect. What will I use to question it? What will I use to interrogate it? - I will use the collective experience of those who use or are forced to use alternatives and see what it can tell me about health and healing. Interactions with folk healers (most recently at Sittilingi for example) on how they gather evidence for their practice, how they learn and what are the values they espouse when they practice medicine are extremely eye opening. It does not mean that I will not reach for a brufen, it does not mean that I will not demand toxicology studies or proper documentation of adverse events for all forms of medicine. But it does not mean that I will not have respectful conversations with people who practice alternatives. I can ethically only use the parameters of science I have at my disposal - but I will not cease questioning them.

It is a confusing process, it is sometimes contradictory - but it is the only way I can hold my peace.

warm regards,

rakhal

Akshay S Dinesh

1 Aug 2023, 16:13:3901/08/2023
to rakhal.gaitonde, ritupriyajnu, prab...@yahoo.com, MFC
Thanks Rakhal, that's a very clear explanation and perhaps even answers my questions about what you mean in the article I quoted above.

On the last point, I have a follow-up question. When you apply whatever methods you have, and discover that something *is* harmful, let us say you did a toxicology study of a herbal supplement a Sittilingi resident with tuberculosis is taking, and you find that it contains some substances that is causing liver damage, what do you do? How do you deal with that situation?

Thanks again for engaging thoughtfully and in detail, just like Ritu.

ASD

randallsqr87

2 Aug 2023, 06:33:5102/08/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, Mfccircle
Dear Akshay and others on this thread
I really enjoyed reading the banter on this thread particularly from you Akshay . i do believe you are earnestly engaging and travelling a certain cognitive distance to do so when you express your certainties in various moral/ethical/public/political situations - especially the claims to what a public health professional (or a medical professional too) should consider part of their public and personal life . To me at least it reflects a struggle of making the personal , political and vice versa and it requires a certain amount of courage and balance while keeping an open, dare i say scientific mind
While exploring what we consider of value and the 'values' that go behind categorizing something of value and at the same time imagining that every action has these personal and public consequences, I feel that while engaging with the knowledge of shamans , hakims and vaidyas, we should take it slow and maybe ferment some of what we have internalized before providing value judgements even in our head , before quickly making the personal, political. I suggest this only based on a deeply long and painful journey learning to unlearn the biases of my own 'scientific' training while working with practitioners of traditional medicine. 
The construct of making your own science, i feel will have to give leeway to the fact that we perhaps think emote and express in a particular 'language ' of science that we might want to be inclusive and pluralistic but we might not have the 'vocabulary' for the same and like a child learning a new language it might make sense to have certain intuitive rules like taking it slow, trial and erroring, being aware that you will have many dumb teachers and focussing on small sentences (in this case primary care medicine) 
That being the case, while decoloniality, a feminist or a subaltern lens might all be important ones to wear, continuing to practice and listen to practitioners even if they might be selling you coronil is still something worth doing because practice is part of a repertoire and while a healer might have a coronil  to treat corona in their repertoire, they might also have an ecologically and loco-regionally sound remedy for warts that really works .

Respect and regards
Randall

Akshay S Dinesh

2 Aug 2023, 07:20:0502/08/2023
to randallsqr87, Mfccircle
Thanks Randall for the deeply insightful response. I did think about the "personal is political" many many times during the course of this thread.

I engage with almost all human beings with an equal amount of respect – and that respect is not based on their degrees or publications or work experience or positions or what deference others show to them. It stems directly from the constitutional principle that every human being is a human being. When I said almost, I do make exceptions – there are people whom I "cancel" in some ways after engaging with them or seeing what they've done, and I don't respect them as much. 

And, like mfc has gotten rid of honorific titles, I don't believe in respect that's expressed through language. I believe in a respect that's expressed through engagement, listening, and reflection. I have written about it in https://blog.learnlearn.in/2017/10/cough-up-some-patriotism-please.html (where I say that my respect for the notion of India won't be through standing up for national anthem) and in https://blog.learnlearn.in/2023/03/non-violence-wasnt-gandhis-only-message.html (where I say that Indians who "show" respect don't actually respect people).

In practice this translates for me in this way.
There are people/orgs whom I respect and agree with: I amplify their work and give it visibility.
There are people/orgs whom I respect and don't understand: I question their work and try to understand it.
There are people/orgs whom I do not respect: I ignore their work and do not give it visibility, not even by writing against it. (I might not have perfected this ignore strategy yet)

On the other hand, your analysis that I make quick value judgments from my inner notions of what is right – that is accurate. I do make quick value judgments. But I keep it very open and liable to change at any moment. That's what I relate to in the "scientific method" – start with weakly held hypotheses, keep strengthening it through experiments.

It's possibly true that at present since I reside in Bangalore, I do not have to interact with healers, etc. The most I interact with are homeopaths, ayurvedic practitioners, and siddha practitioners. Yesterday at 6pm I got a call from a friend who had switched to homeopathy from Amlodipine. They have access to a digital BP apparatus and regularly check BP – in acceptable range. So I told them to continue the homeopathy medicine – works for me. Whereas there are people living with HIV who follow up with me having discovered a "cure", I spend up to 30-40 minutes with them convincing them to continue ART. This is roughly how I deal with plural knowledge – focusing on what's the best for the people involved. 

Now, coming to the politics of knowledge argument. Rakhal, Ritu, etc have written almost all of this (minus COVID-19 example) previously in mfc bulletins. I've been following this work since then. Ritu has a very long essay at https:// web.archive.org/web/20230609134047/http://www.dialogue.ias.ac.in/ article/51424/critical-holism-as-public-health-theory-towards-a- unifying-framework-for-research-policy-and-planning which also makes similar points in between.

Just like Ritu and Rakhal and Mohit and others see a unifying framework in this "pluralism" where we don't do value judgments, I see a unifying framework in scientific temper where we do value judgments for everything equally. It seems to me like the politics of knowledge argument is that we should not question any beliefs. My counter argument is that we should question all beliefs. It seems to me like the politics of knowledge argument is that nothing is bullshit. My counter argument is that everything is bullshit unless "proved" otherwise. 

It is likely that what I consider as "proof" is being misunderstood. I am a consequentialist. For me, proof is the outcome. 

From what I read in your email, Randall, you seem to think like me – because you also make a value judgement about a wart treatment that *works*. So in my reading you're using some method like mine to judge if something works or not. Rakhal also was suggesting a similar approach when Rakhal gave the example of doing toxicology analysis.

But Ritu, in my reading, is the most urdent supporter of the politics of knowledge argument. If Ritu also agrees that we can make these value judgements (privately in our mind, not necessary to be expressed in public or not necessary to be expressed to healers, etc) – then we are all on the same page. But the clarification I need is whether my reading of this politics-of-knowledge politics is correct.

Because if Ritu does fundamentally believe in and manifest through Ritu's personal life the equality of all beliefs with knowledge, then I very much would like to understand how and try to imbibe some of that in my life.

ASD

ritupriyajnu

3 Aug 2023, 00:13:2203/08/2023
to Akshay S Dinesh, randallsqr87, Mfccircle
Dear Akshay, 

My appreciation of your questioning mind and respect for attempts at coherence between the personal and political is what keeps me engaged in our conversation in this email thread.  Besides my interest in the subject of course.

However, for me language is also important.  I do not use 'bullshit' for anybody's beliefs or knowledge because, to me, it displays a certain arrogance about one's own mental/ideological frame.   And it is not, to my mind,  conducive to dialogic  interactions across ideological/knowledge boundaries.
I believe in all people's rationality and attempt to understand it, especially when their understanding is counter to mine.  That does not mean that I do not then have a judgement about other's perspective but I like to give it adequate leeway, especially if it is part of any form of  social or political marginalisation. I do use 'bullshit', but only for blatant falsehood as in narratives being generated today counter to all socially observed experience, eg the denial of deaths due to lack of oxygen during COVID. 

I also do not, in my view, romanticise 'people's rationality' and recognise that it is often shaped by historical, collective and personal experience and observation, coloured by the socialisation in one's cultural milieu and the extent of wider exposure and availability of tools to observe and analyse.  These sources can all have distorted perceptions of the reality and therefore there is a need for assessment of what one 'knows' or 'believes in'. Socially accepted 'knowledge' is "justified true belief" and 'justification' comes from what the dominant group of experts of the subject of that time decide is the valid mode of knowledge generation / research methodology.  I am sorry this is becoming like a lecture but I hope it is enough to answer your question. 

I do not usually flaunt my personal attempts at resistance to the dominant medicalisation and search for alternatives, but since you ask, and as relevant to the subject, in the 1980s when several of us were questioning the focus and design of immunisation programmes, I did not immunise my child even though I had to argue my case with several  doctor friends and family members. Since then I have used plural medicine (including modern and traditional practices) for myself and family, including for instance, my diabetic husband's carbuncle and fistula-in-ano  with reasonable 'success'.  I have benefitted from a form of meditative energy channelisation and thereby avoided the use of NSAIDS for my osteoarthritis and healed a sprain.  These are very individual personalised examples and prove nothing. They could be just chance. But I think it is also about what we see as 'having worked'; fully healed for the carbuncle certainly, but reduction of pain and disability and improved wellbeing for the osteoarthritis makes me see it as having worked.   

Epidemiological evidence exists for several traditional therapies and preventives, but much more research is required, especially for whole system preventive  and therapeutic approaches, not merely for pharmaceutical products that the AYUSH ministry is pushing for  enlarging international markets (see for more--https://journals.lww.com/IJPH/Fulltext/2022/66020/The_Role_of_Traditional_Medicine_in_Public_Health.1.aspx).  However such research requires support that can come only after a wider systemic recognition of the validity and potential of plural knowledges and epistemologies, which is presently lacking due to the hegemony of modern science (see for this argument-- https://fitm.ris.org.in/sites/fitm.ris.org.in/files/2022-11/TMR%20Journal%20October%202022.pdf).  In my understanding, the present establishment TM discourse is not even serious about the epistemological principles of the system they propagate, only moulding it to the modern and commercial interests.  

Further on the 'personal is political',  if use of plural medicine worked even to some extent for me, I find it an ethical imperative that, as a public health person, I should explore this avenue and prevent the loss of  benefits that others, especially the marginalised sections, are accruing from it is not lost to them (see for more- https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0971721818762937), even while we continue to struggle for the universal right to quality modern healthcare. 

In fact, I would suggest that within MFC we create a specific space or platform, where members can share what of plural health care worked for them, or did not work for them. Both are equally important to know.  It may come up with some startling revelations because I have friends who were pretty against the idea until they themselves experienced some benefit.  In the last PHM Assembly in Bangladesh some of us had organized a session on TM as Resistance and Resilience.  Such a cumulative sharing of  experiences may aid in further exploration in that direction.  

all the best for your explorations,
Ritu





Akshay S Dinesh

3 Aug 2023, 03:07:2103/08/2023
to ritupriyajnu, randallsqr87, Mfccircle
This has been very useful. Thank you.

I have recently heard another strong argument in favor of rethinking my perspective about language/words: https://youtu.be/6T44xBgKV_s – I'll experiment and see how it works out (and of course write about it).

I think we're mostly on the same page about politics of knowledge then. I can relate with the politics of solidarity with the marginalized. My expression-of-"arrogance" level is definitely higher. 

The denial-of-COVID-deaths example was especially useful because I was constantly worrying about the parallels between the multiple truths argument and the kind of reinterpretation/rewrite of history (and current affairs) by the right wing in India. 


I can help you/mfc setup a 'wiki' for documenting collaboratively the plural healthcare that worked/didn't – if that sounds interesting. 

ASD

r.sr...@gmail.com

3 Aug 2023, 07:44:1103/08/2023
to Mfccircle
Dear Ritu,

Thanks for bringing up the distinction between democracy, egalitarian address and arrogance.  This has been a struggle for me over three decades, and I have yet not got a handle on it.

All best, and trust all's well with you
Srivats



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R Srivatsan
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There is only one solution if old age is not to be an absurd parody of our former life, and that is to go on pursuing ends that give our existence a meaning – devotion to individuals, to groups or to causes, social, political, intellectual or creative work … in old age we should wish still to have passions strong enough to prevent us turning in on ourselves. One’s life has value so long as one attributes value to the life of others, by means of love, friendship, indignation, compassion. - Simone de Beauvoir 

sanjaynagral

3 Aug 2023, 16:01:3603/08/2023
to Mfccircle
This is a very thoughtful, interesting and original discussion on a vexing issue. 

There are other immediate aspects to this debate around us. Here are a few.

What do I do when  in my practice when a patient asks me whether they should use an ayurvedic or homeopathic medicine I have to offer a somewhat brief and clear answer. I currently say "I dont know, its your choice but be careful of side effects '  

I can understand the plant/herb/lifestyle/food basis for many traditional treatments. Homeopathy sounds completely counterintuitive and unfathomable. 

We need to also have some understanding about the lakhs of Ayush graduates being churned out every year ; that this is just a career choice for job security and social mobility and in turn they are being used by modern medicine as cheap labour. 

Finally the Ayush push is also currently part of a larger political project. 

Sanjay Nagral




amitapitre

4 Aug 2023, 09:57:2604/08/2023
to sanjaynagral, Mfccircle
Dear all,

Agree with Sanjay that the discussion is insightful and thought provoking and much needed. As a person trained in Ayurvedic Medicine who later did Public Health which is mostly based on ‘modern science’ and having spent many years in the development sector with ideas of democratic knowledge systems, egalitarianism and respect for human beings- this discussion is very helpful. 

I agree that indigenous medicine, folk medicine have been largely neglected and text based Ayurveda holds hedgemony in the formal arena of Ayurveda (and this needs to be corrected); however isn’t it also true that the Ayurvedic texts do carry the knowledge of knowing (Darshana/ philosophies), pedagogy and framework to make sense of findings- though may carry bias based on the historic social location of those who wrote plus lack of current scientific tools in those times. These texts have also emerged from vigorous dialogues of those times and appear to be fragmented in the little tradition (besides poor documentation which also needs to be remedied). That is the value text based can offer. Would love to hear from Ritu and others on this.

That jhola chap doctors abound and tent based therapies for HIV etc, is as much rooted in lack of access to affordable and acceptable health care, no efforts at health awareness etc and therefore I would not be disdainful to them as well. We are privileged to be able to make informed choices alongside personal preferences about which stream of medicine to follow. I personally also do the same (at times modern and at times Ayurveda), though increasing news of liver and other organ damage due to Ayurvedic medicines makes for dilemmas. Though modern medicine has similar issues about safety, over-medication, inappropriate medication, these don’t seem to receive the same kind of attention. We certainly need more analysis of safety of medicines (both modern and Ayurvedic) as well as evaluation of alternative therapies using their philosophy, framework, epistemology, modes of diagnosis as the basis as Ritu has mentioned. 

Finally, the issue of large number of Ayurvedic doctors being churned out and not effectively being used for better access to healthcare for all, besides the animosity that one senses between doctors of modern medicine and alternative systems, is indeed a vexing issue which needs to be addressed as well. 

Just some thoughts that come to mind. 

Amita


Sent from my iPhone

On 03-Aug-2023, at 4:01 PM, Sanjay Nagral <sanjay...@gmail.com> wrote:



Indira Chakravarthi

4 Aug 2023, 17:48:5104/08/2023
to sanjaynagral, amitapitre, Mfccircle
Hello all,

Drawing attention to some points that need to be considered in this discussion about the "messiness" of the politics of knowledge in healing / medical practices -

1. The politics within the respective medical systems (internal aspects) and between multiple medical systems; all located in and shaped by their social contexts - local and global.

Not entirely the case that "western/scientific/modern" has suppressed practices only in their respective colonies. In the process of the rise and hegemony of "w/s/m" medicine in the western world (particularly USA) the traditional healing practices in these countries too have been trampled upon. In the process of reform of what we now know as modern medicine, the growth of a certain kind of "scientific medicine" in late 19th-early 20th century along with professionalization of doctors in the USA, there developed what White calls a 'schism' between public health and medicine. (See White, K.L. 1991, Healing the Schism - Epidemiology, Medicine, and the Public’s Health, and Brown, E.R. 1979 Rockefeller Medicine Men - Medicine and Capitalism in America; for a rich, detailed history).  In this process, not only were the poorer classes excluded from entering the medical profession, they also lost the medical care that was indigenous to their communities and was available to them – such as those of midwives and other healers. In addition, Public Health became simply application of this 'scientific medicine'.  It is this kind of medicine that got adopted in India too also through activities of Rockefeller Fdn in the early 20th century - its International Health Commission, sending "modern" medical practitioners from India to US for advanced medical training and research; the establishment of AIIHPH, etc.

The other point is - there has been questioning of this "w/s/m" medicine from within medicine, since its rise and subsequently its reliance on technology.  One among the numerous works is that of Reiser (Reiser S.J. 1978: Medicine and the Reign of Technology). Reiser describes at length how two movements developed within the medical profession in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, by which time technologies like the x-ray and the clinical laboratory had started becoming widespread.  These raised important questions about the uncritical reliance of medicine on technologically generated facts, and concerns over the growing neglect of the patients’ views, history and description of symptoms, and gave rise to calls for 'technologic restraint'.  It is not possible to go into the details here - for my PhD dissertation on medical technology, I came across and largely used studies and critical perspectives from within the medical profession and medical discourse; social scientists were/are not the only ones critical of medical technology.

We subsequently have Cochrane reviews, movements for EBM, rural surgeons' associations in not only India but in many other countries - including the western countries - USA, Australia; practitioners of the community health paradigm; all of these in my view, constitute internal critiques of "w/s/m medicine".

Furthermore, it is not simply certain clinical procedures, treatments, vaccines and pharma etc., that are so assessed/evaluated, the very paradigm of this kind of "w/s/m medicine" too has been questioned from within.

There was a constitutional medicine stream among medical practitioners of late eighteenth-early nineteenth century, which was sidelined. The history of the genesis of Public Health in England-USA (as we now know and practice) reveals the conflicts and debates that took place then; the subsequent rise and dominance of the germ theory by the end of the 19th century culminating in the contemporary reductionist bio-medical approach. 

Christopher Hamlin's work shows - that there was a sophisticated understanding of multiple determinants of health, that of pre-disposing causes, which was central to the medical thought and widespread in medical literature in this period, such as reports of epidemics, testimonies of medical men on factory work, or prison life, or water supply, or treatises on physiology or on specific diseases, and in medical text-books.  This framework viewed health as the totality of physical, chemical and psychological influences.  It integrated body and mind, and viewed the body as an intricate and fragile machine able to preserve its textures, and health as a powerful and positive safeguard against disease.  A great many environmental factors - lack of good food, rest and warm dry clothing - could sap its energy and lead to disease.  In this framework the inquiry began with the diseased person and took up the question of why s/he had been afflicted in a particular manner. 
The sanitarian movement of the Chadwick era represents the rejection/exclusion of such a Constitutional Medicine approach that existed among medical practitioners during 18th-19th century (remember Rudolf Virchow), and a narrowing of outlook in favour of a single `exciting cause' - filth in the environment - for disease causation.  This process of exclusion involved ignoring, both the medical sensibility of the time, as also the enormous evidence collected by the medical profession from around the country (England).  By restricting cause of disease to a single exciting cause, social issues got effectively marginalized.  Hamlin's work clearly brings out the fact that at that time there were `ready resources for building many different kinds of public health movement', for a medically sanctioned program of reform.  As Hamlin describes -  Chadwick, the social administrator, took a narrow view, while William Farr (and others, including physicians) emphasized role of social factors in disease causation (See Hamlin, C (1995) Could You Starve to Death in England in 1839? The Chadwick-Farr Controversy and the Loss of the “Social” in Public Health.  American Journal of Public Health, 85(6), pp 856-866; and Hamlin, C. (1992) Predisposing Causes and Public Health in Early Nineteenth-Century Medical Thought.  Journal of the Society for the Social History of Medicine 5(1), 43-70.).

Does not the contemporary Social Medicine stream (with its origins in work of Virchow and many other constitutional medicine practitioners like him in England and rest of Europe), which tends towards an eco-bio-social theoretical explanation for health and disease - (prevalent far more in Latin American discourse) carry in it the essence of holistic medicine? Would we not consider the modern/scientific medicine, which we so love to hate, as also having the potential for holistic medicine? Is it only "traditional medicine" that is holistic?

Available research shows how this stream of Social Medicine has also been marginalized - and it is only the reductionist, bio-medical stream of modern medicine that has been promoted since the 19th century even in the "West", as also in the colonies, and subsequently by our own social and political power elites.

The point I am trying to articulate is - to not lose sight of these "voices of discontent, dissent and resistance" within this stream of modern, scientific medicine - not just in India but universally - however marginal or inadequate they may appear.

It is one particular stream of "w/s/m" medical practice that has become "the system". W/S/M cannot be treated as one homogenous, monolithic-uniform-rigid system that emerged from the "West" and has marginalized and suppressed non-western medical practices. Which particular stream has become dominant even within this "w/s/m" system needs consideration - which stream, how did/does it acquire its influence and power, how and why did it come to be so dominant and hegemonic? From where did it get the resources to become powerful and dominant?

Can we possibly discuss politics of knowledge without simultaneously keeping in sight the sources of the hegemony and dominance of particular knowledges - of the local and global social forces, and how they propagate-advocate-negotiate-cooperate to support or suppress knowledge - namely the external forces; and the co-operation of certain streams of a knowledge system with these forces?

A question that arises as a corollary is - do we know of the internal workings of the numerous TM practices, formal and folk. Say at least Ayurveda - of the internal conflicts and debates within Ayurveda; what is the discourse within that system? Are there voices of discontent and dissent within these systems? What are they about?

2. For instance: Just as there is discussion and debate and conflict within "w/s/m" medicine over effective, safe, ethical, clinical care (rational care), and regarding  its explanatory framework-goals-philosophy, is there such a discourse and debate within the various TMs?

Going further: in every healing / medical practice, how do we sift the rational from the ineffective, unsafe, unethical practices? What would be the benchmark/criteria/reference point by which such multiple healing/medical practices are to be assessed/compared? How to arrive at such benchmarks?

3. Talking of personal practices - I am sharing paper from IJME by Vijay Gopichandran - on what choice means from laypeople's experience, for those who are not trained medical practitioners themselves and so their experiences would be different.  How do those of us who are not doctors in any system arrive at any useful decisions, in this messy situation?  It's a case often of "scarcity amidst plenty".     

Mainstreaming AYUSH: an ethical analysis, in Indian Journal of Medical Ethics Vol 9 No 4 October-December 2012.

Sincere apologies for this very long mail, and for adding to the "messiness".

Indira
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

jagchat01

4 Aug 2023, 22:25:4904/08/2023
to Indira Chakravarthi, sanjaynagral, amitapitre, Mfccircle
Yes there are dissenting voices within ayurvedic and homeopathic systems. Naturopathy is a very fundamental philosophy and generally agreed upon.

Ayurveda existed as a preventive system of medicine with very few requiring the attention of a qualified ayurved. The strength lay in its philosophy that rested on "prana" or the life force within the person. The philosophy involved the elements; space, air, fire, water, and earth and their combinations vata, pitta, and kapha. Their interplay and excesses were recognized and could be dealt with mostly by rest, change in diet, mentality, and lifestyle. 

Around 1930 a Commission declared that ayurvedic philosophy (Samkhya) was "religion" and its study and application was discontinued in colleges. Instead a disease name based system was propagated. This led to a drug based reductionist approach that has continued ever since. What has emerged is no longer ayurveda but herbalism. Drugs were there earlier but sparsely used. They were prepared by the Vaidya based on the constitution of the individual patient. The prevalence of this system and the discontinuation of ayurvedic education in the general population ensued that the knowledge base of the general population suffered a hit. 

Today there are many dissenting sects within the ayurvedic system who are trying to get out of the mess.

Homeopathy was discovered by Hahnemann who was a mainstream doctor. He was opposed by his colleagues who refused to believe in it. However they were not without integrity and reason. They decided to read Hahnemann, understand the remedies, and apply them according to the stated principles. To their amazement they achieved cures. This led to widespread acceptance of homeopathy infuriating the quacks who formed the AMA to dissuade doctors by threatening them with cancellation of licence.

Later the Flexner Report buried the entire holistic system and the colleges teaching them were closed. Hahnemann was brutally treated and he had to flee from one place to another, ultimately giving up the ghost. Homeopathy however survived and spread. 

Homeopathy is based on the vital force, just as ayurveda. We all observe an intelligent energy in the physical frame that performs all vital functions. This also ensures health by resorting to acute symptoms when faced with any crisis. The common acute ailments of the body, mostly eliminative, are but the healing attempts of the body. The human body is a composition of biological elements and organisms that are very well synchronized to perform as a whole. The system is adversely affected by waste accumulation and toxicity.

What homeopathy does is to arouse the vital force with potentized remedies; freeing it of derangement which then results in its efficient function, restoring the eliminative process, and establishing a cure. The concepts of Herxeimer reaction and Herring's laws of cure describe the process.

Homeopathy was initially championed by mainstream doctors who resorted to the disease name based treatment. Hahnemann through his writings steered them to understand the value of totality of symptoms. Gradually over time the new concepts developed into what is termed classical homeopathy. This approach treats the patient and not the disease (an approach appreciated by William Osler).

In India a lot of effort went into "modernizing homeopathy" and making it "scientific". As a result the medical colleges teach modern medicine instead of homeopathy leading to very confused graduates. In my State I had taken up this issue and for many years pursued the same without any results.  

Thus there are many groups in homeopathy who adopt the classical approach and try to fine tune it. The graduates then have to study these evolving systems to become homeopaths. It is an arduous process, and thoroughly unnecessary.

Currently there is a movement towards integrative medicine. Doctors of all modalities are converging to provide the best of all systems to their patients. New incumbents into these groups tend to fight but are made to see reason. This form of integrative medicine was what was dismantled by Rockefeller's henchmen. To be fair to Rockefeller he had wanted to also invest in homeopathy as it was the modality he and his family exclusively depended upon. He never tasted the brand of medicine ascribed to his name.

The doctors (of all systems) who want health and cures despair at the intense toxicity meted out by the mainstream. There is also no understanding about disease and health. Disease management is about disappearance of symptoms. It is convenient, deviates and absolves from the responsibility of ensuring cures and therefore there is a huge deficit in the understanding and knowledge that would lead to restoration of health.

Any genuine system of medicine should;
- Keep the healthy at the peak of their health 
- Lead the unhealthy towards health 
- Cure the sick

Cures are characterized by three things;
- Temporary worsening of symptoms
- A period of elimination 
- Appearance of previously suppressed systems in a given order

The above are dependent on the strength of the vitality in the body, the nature and extent of toxicity, and the number of times and methods resorted to, to suppress the acutes.

If the vital strength is low, the toxicity intense, and the patient has suffered years of abuse, then cures become difficult. That is what is increasingly being witnessed today.

We are at a stage where mass deaths are set to happen. The demands for hospitals will give away to demands for crematoriums. But we should not give up hope. We should pray that sense percolates into the profession and the concern for patients' welfare triumphs over all other concerns.

With regards,





drarun.gadre

5 Aug 2023, 08:31:3305/08/2023
to amitapitre, sanjaynagral, Mfccircle

Dear all,
I have been reading this interesting thread quite engrossed.
Frankly, sometimes I feel that I am reading something in Greek because of my deficiency of understanding in the discourse setting and the concepts like the political economical and historical anchoring. So forgive me if I am naive.
I practiced in tribal and rural India for more than twenty years as a private practitioner, as a gynecologist.
My opinions and views, are hence anecdotal. Amita has given some ground reality.
When I built my hospital in 1990, being only specialist in sixty km my first referring persons were - Local Daies, midwives. They personally accompany their patients with obstructed labor for my intervention. I was always stunned by their expertise. They were all illiterate. I am a Marathi novelist as well and speaking with them I realised how Marathi language missed beauty of technical terms used by these females for various key processes in labor.
These practitioners were kept out of fence by rigid Brahminical knowledge forts. We as a society lost treasures even in language.
I have interacted with midwives at Jamkhed at Dr Rajanikanth Arole project. It too was inspiring.

That was till 1992 - 94. Unchecked commercialization devastated these midwives. The homeopath doctors poured in the market and started going to villages and giving - oxtitocin injections IM yes, IM. In contrast Midwives assisted nature. The customers of midwives swiftly got swayed to these doctors giving injection for increasing labor pains. An upwardly mobile trend. Doctor replacing illiterate midwives.
Patients suffered. These homeopath were not allowed to use modern medicines but ninety nine percent they used modern medicine rampantly. Homeopath colleges were politicians' gold mine. They were lateral entry in medicine at cheap cost.  The market was and is ruled by modern medicine. I had to recieve complications made by these quacks. One was rupture uterus in second trimester. One such doctor had given IM oxtitocin for abortion. Patient died. Many labor ended at my doorstep were stillbirths. One such homeopath quack came at 3 am at night with a case of false labor pains where he has given cuts at four o clock and eight o clock in cervix (exact location of uterine arteries) to dilate the cervix. Yes these doctors displaced midwives.
In front of me, the knowledgeable system of illiterate midwives was destroyed by market forces used by ignorent and arrogant homeopath business persons. Midwives were deficient in asepsis. But still I would have prefered midwives over these doctors.
BAMS doctors also joined the growing unregulated market. Yes, the modern medicine practitioners too joined to use market to prosper, but never ever I saw them giving oxytocin IM. yes they were busy in fast making money by doing unindicated hysterectomies. I remember writing an article in local newspaper - titled - epidemic of hysterectomy.
My point here is on ground I see no alternative pathy practiced as taught. Doctors from all pathy practice modern medicine. I saw one general practitioner homeopath adding steroid powder in cough syrup of a child.
Some are sincere to know their drugs and stay within limits. Like Amita has said, they are useful like Zola chhap when and where access to modern medicine is scanty. But most go overboard.
You may wonder why i am taking discussion to unregulated commercialization and marketisation of medicine when the discussion is within parameters of well defined academic context.
I just want to point out that only few practitioners stick to their own speciality. That luxury is in cities.
Like Sanjay said, it was always a dilemaa when patients wanted my certificate to Ayurved. And that Ayurved was not someone with serious learning, but of Baba and Maharaj. All these so called spiritual Gurus excel in Ayurved without degree and earn tons by sale of so called Ayurvedic medicines.
Now i spread here my confusion regarding this subject.
we in modern medicine are anchored on evidence based practice. And gold standard is - randomised control trials.
I know many from Dr Sharadini Dahanukar who have insisted, ran trials and proved efficiency of Ayurvedic medicine using randomised controlled trials. There is increasing number of such devoted persons.
On this backdrop I wonder whether we concede to demand that such evidence is not possible in homeopathy or Ayurved and it's up to person to keep faith and take it anyway.
I am not sure that I am ready for it. However I fight against commercialization of modern medicines, pharma companies twisting trials, I can not deny the rationality of modern medicine and base of randomised controlled trial.
Lastly will I take Ayurved or homeopathy myself? May take. When I run out of my trics in modern medicine and still suffering i may hope and try for some relief. I am mere mortal human afterall.
Now comes the last point. We forget often that medicine lingers on the blurred line between life and death, and it does have an element of mystery since beginning of ages. However we progress technologically that sense of mystery and magic is never going to vanish.
Placebo is just one aspect of that spectrum. Unexpected miraculous healings always knock genuinely though rarely.
So if  I feel helpless, well I may opt any rope coming in my hands.  But even if I get cured I still will be insisting for evidence based modern medicine as the anchor for treating my patients and for myself as a default.


kkbjmc

5 Aug 2023, 09:46:0905/08/2023
to drarun.gadre, Mfccircle
Hello friends,

Thank you very much for reading my article which Akshay shared and for engaging with it in so many productive ways. I would like to thank Akshay for starting this conversation  and for nudging us all to think and articulate.

As Rakhal mentioned, the main issue in the article was the contemporary (past 4-6 yrs or so?) discourse regarding traditional medicine and Ayurveda, including the insincere appropriation of 'decolonial' discourse by Hindu and Brahmanical supremacist groups and influencers.

This dynamic email thread has taken a different but related path, and so I would just like to add to that. Picking up on what Sanjay, Amita, Indira and Arun said, I have some questions in mind, and if people have any thoughts and facts on that, it would be awesome to know more:

1. Do marginalized and underprivileged groups in India really always 'prefer' 'traditional medicine', however defined, over biomedical therapeutic options? Pluralism exists as we all agree, but anthropology and sociology studies show that biomedical therapeutic options are very commonly and voluntarily preferred by people in India from different backgrounds. Can we say that biomedicine has become fully absorbed and assimilated into the cultures and routines of the vast majority of people in India?

2. Maybe that is too general a question, but in the public discourse as well as much scholarship, one often gets the impression that 'people in non-Western regions feel alienated with biomedicine and prefer their own traditional medical methods'. But maybe we need to make a distinction here between biomedicine (as a set of ideas and approaches toward health and sickness) on the one hand, and biomedical practitioners and institutions on the other? What people feel alienated by is perhaps mostly the latter and not generally the former? That could also explain the overwhelming response received by biomedicine-based institutions and practitioners which are genuinely patient- and society-oriented?

3. One of the common objections raised to such a framing - that is, if one says that it is not biomedicine at 'fault' but the practitioners and institutions - is the assertion that actually biomedicine (and modern science) are INHERENTLY always going to be alienating and even violent. Do people here think that to be true? Is there even any way to gauge if some non-living, abstract, and tremendously complex and diverse entitity like modern science/medicine is 'inherently' irredeemable?

4. Finally, does the direction that mainstream Ayurveda has taken in the past 10 years, toward rampant commercialization, exploitation, biopolitical application, discriminatory belittling of marginalized and minority communities, etc, make us rethink some of the past critiques of biomedicine? Do these recent developments show that such type of consequences are less about any inherent attribute of modern science/medicine per se, and perhaps more about just who is in power and how they are appropriating different entities?

These are just some of the many questions that I myself have been pondering over and grappling with for quite some time. It's wonderful to be able to share them on this amazing platform.

Thank you again for the engagement!
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/mfccircle/CAEhVRsh7ohwALAeKReOzYOXkEg9G6%3DXq138JtdAC-qJ2rXZrxg%40mail.gmail.com.
>

r.sr...@gmail.com

5 Aug 2023, 10:22:0605/08/2023
to Mfccircle
These are some really superb questions and asked in the right perspective (starting from the people and looking inward to medicine and medical practice)!

I think the question to be answered, as implied by your probing Kiran (If I may), is why do so-called "primitive" forms of medical culture survive?  Are they surviving in spite of their "anti-peopleness"?  Or are they surviving because of the apparent anti-people effect of the more advanced systems?  What is their ecological niche in which they find their rationality?  How are these niches of neglect surviving in the broad field of modern Western medicine?

Secondly, I think the question to be probed further is, what is the relationship between modern medical certainty, and its consequential arrogance in practice on the one hand, and the claim to the most advanced scientificity in all the different kinds of medical practice in the world?  This arrogance may well be implicit, as with a generosity -- "of course you may use your other forms of cure -- they won't affect my treatment", or explicit too.

I also liked your third probe -- looking at the rampant commercialization and corruption of Ayurveda, how should we modulate our criticism of modern Western medicine's commercialized basis?

I will continue to read these...

Best wishes
Srivats



dhrvmankad

5 Aug 2023, 10:51:1105/08/2023
to kkbjmc, drarun.gadre, Mfccircle
Dear all,

Interesting and absorbing debate on Alternative Medicine/AYUSH particularly in current status in India.

One of the key issues emerging in the discussion (which we had raised in our articles in MFC bulletin) is updating the knowledge about various pathies through research, it's documentation and validation.

I recommend the following links/articles which has reviewed this aspect:




Also,

As an example of application of modern clinical scientific research methodology, I have attached an article for your review.

A journal having an article by Dr Kishore Patwardhan about Peer reviewed journals on Ayurved.

Sincerely,

Dhruv







1-s20-S0975947623000359-main_230805_104646.pdf
Scopes_and_Opportunities_of_Hospital_and_230805_104615.pdf

jagchat01

5 Aug 2023, 16:15:3605/08/2023
to dhrvmankad, kkbjmc, drarun.gadre, Mfccircle
Commercialization is a bane for every kind of medicine. Ethics in ayurveda expressly forbids it. Homeopathy was mostly practiced as a social service by those who studied it on their own. I have voluntarily supported a homeopathic doctor in his clinic for 15 years, till his death.

There are several factors that have led to commercialization.

- Organized medicine. This was a mistake as health is natural and the medical approach is fraught with dangers 
- Taking personal responsibility away from the person so s/he would become dependent on the system
- Opening medical colleges and making medical education prohibitively expensive 
- The emergence of the pharmaceutical industry and its absolute dependence 
- Medical representatives arriving on the scene putting the stamp of business upon the profession 
- Practice becoming a full time affair. Earlier medicine was a part time affair as not many people were sick enough to merit treatment 
- Conveniently forgetting the basic determinants of health 
- Practice of vaccination, overuse of antibiotics and steroids leading to universal sickness 
- Completely forgetting ethics 
- Medicine becoming an attractive profession for the perks and income 
- Corruption of the holistic systems on the pretext of making them scientific so that their sincere practice does not upset the apple cart 

Today there is no treatment. The patient is the pathway to income and wealth. Health and cures frighten the huge network. Disease is needed and all out efforts will ensure that this vital input never exhausts itself.

We may debate our heart out, volumes can be written, all the research can be done and studies published, but things are not going to change. The practice of medicine is a livelihood, no longer a service, and by people who, thanks to the system, are kept focused on targets and incentives. The Pandemic Treaty that will be signed in May 2024 will gladden many hearts as absolute power will be handed over to the system. It will be a dream come true.

People like us have studied what it takes to self treat and we are forced to act for ourselves facing derision and threats. When I stepped out on the streets during Covid times protesting the experimental gene injections the DCP personally filed an FIR against me. He withdrew it the next day as the local administration knows me well.

The people are helpless. They know they are being harmed. They know they are being looted. They know there is no justice. They now know that they are no longer wanted on the planet. The profession feels everything is hunky dory and it is the Ayush practitioners who are the trouble makers.

It all started because an oil barron wanted to expand his business, the powerful quacks wanted his investment, and along the way many agendas piggy backed on the juggernaut to offer a lucrative career to those who would comply and not question.

Things happen. Bad things happen. This is all a part of life. Sometimes we need big mistakes to learn and not make the same mistake in the next cycle. 

Regards,


rakhal.gaitonde

1 Oct 2023, 17:27:1901/10/2023
to kkbjmc, drarun.gadre, Mfccircle, Akshay S Dinesh
Thanks Kiran, 

My responses in line..... in red


On Sat, 5 Aug 2023, 09:46 Kiran Kumbhar, <kkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello friends,

Thank you very much for reading my article which Akshay shared and for engaging with it in so many productive ways. I would like to thank Akshay for starting this conversation  and for nudging us all to think and articulate.

As Rakhal mentioned, the main issue in the article was the contemporary (past 4-6 yrs or so?) discourse regarding traditional medicine and Ayurveda, including the insincere appropriation of 'decolonial' discourse by Hindu and Brahmanical supremacist groups and influencers.

This dynamic email thread has taken a different but related path, and so I would just like to add to that. Picking up on what Sanjay, Amita, Indira and Arun said, I have some questions in mind, and if people have any thoughts and facts on that, it would be awesome to know more:

1. Do marginalized and underprivileged groups in India really always 'prefer' 'traditional medicine', however defined, over biomedical therapeutic options? Pluralism exists as we all agree, but anthropology and sociology studies show that biomedical therapeutic options are very commonly and voluntarily preferred by people in India from different backgrounds. Can we say that biomedicine has become fully absorbed and assimilated into the cultures and routines of the vast majority of people in India?

rakhal: I don't think the question in practise is that any system is completely preferred. One study in vellore for example showed that rural communities recognized 4 distinct stages in the evolution of TB and chose different systems accordingly. Similarly many studies talk about Cognitive dissonance..... thus every group /individual chooses a system based on a complex set of reasons.... and not only efficacy (something proved in an RCT). However much we may want that or interpret health seeking.


2. Maybe that is too general a question, but in the public discourse as well as much scholarship, one often gets the impression that 'people in non-Western regions feel alienated with biomedicine and prefer their own traditional medical methods'. But maybe we need to make a distinction here between biomedicine (as a set of ideas and approaches toward health and sickness) on the one hand, and biomedical practitioners and institutions on the other? What people feel alienated by is perhaps mostly the latter and not generally the former? That could also explain the overwhelming response received by biomedicine-based institutions and practitioners which are genuinely patient- and society-oriented?

rakhal: I think Indira has covered this in her earlier email.... many of us So called modern medicine practitioners DO feel that the present dominant practise is alienating. This is as much an internal as it is an external debate. As Indira points out my friends in Latin America are talking of - Buen Vivir... a concept difficult to translate into medical terms and into which we enter a little only through Indigenous cosmologies.... and yes this is both an epistemological and ontological question @ASD. And Kiran I think it is both the practitioners and institutions as well as the knowledge base they claim gives them the legitimacy - as Foucault says it is Power/knowledge a single composite word.


3. One of the common objections raised to such a framing - that is, if one says that it is not biomedicine at 'fault' but the practitioners and institutions - is the assertion that actually biomedicine (and modern science) are INHERENTLY always going to be alienating and even violent. Do people here think that to be true? Is there even any way to gauge if some non-living, abstract, and tremendously complex and diverse entitity like modern science/medicine is 'inherently' irredeemable?

rakhal: I think I have covered some of this in my earlier point. As a patient who has undergone long hospitalization and sickness I can vouch for alienation..... as a doctor I can vouch for my constant efforts towards holism.

4. Finally, does the direction that mainstream Ayurveda has taken in the past 10 years, toward rampant commercialization, exploitation, biopolitical application, discriminatory belittling of marginalized and minority communities, etc, make us rethink some of the past critiques of biomedicine? Do these recent developments show that such type of consequences are less about any inherent attribute of modern science/medicine per se, and perhaps more about just who is in power and how they are appropriating different entities?

rakhal: The way I see it these larger systems will use and corrupt and incentivise all institutions and knowledges to reproduce their dominance in such a situation does it really help to differentiate between whether it is inherent or not? That is how people experience it. In a later email Akshay quotes Meera Nanda extensively where she makes this point of differentiating between science and its practise. I find that (in all humility)  quiet brahminical .... this differentiating into a pure essense and its corruption when it touches the world...... but I have to read that again and slowly.... but these are my initial thoughts...

drarun.gadre

1 Oct 2023, 18:35:0201/10/2023
to kkbjmc, Mfccircle
Thanks Kiran
My response is in blue.
Sorry the color vanished in pasting. My response begins as
Arun


Hello friends,

Thank you very much for reading my article which Akshay shared and for engaging with it in so many productive ways. I would like to thank Akshay for starting this conversation  and for nudging us all to think and articulate.

As Rakhal mentioned, the main issue in the article was the contemporary (past 4-6 yrs or so?) discourse regarding traditional medicine and Ayurveda, including the insincere appropriation of 'decolonial' discourse by Hindu and Brahmanical supremacist groups and influencers.

This dynamic email thread has taken a different but related path, and so I would just like to add to that. Picking up on what Sanjay, Amita, Indira and Arun said, I have some questions in mind, and if people have any thoughts and facts on that, it would be awesome to know more:

1. Do marginalized and underprivileged groups in India really always 'prefer' 'traditional medicine', however defined, over biomedical therapeutic options? Pluralism exists as we all agree, but anthropology and sociology studies show that biomedical therapeutic options are very commonly and voluntarily preferred by people in India from different backgrounds. Can we say that biomedicine has become fully absorbed and assimilated into the cultures and routines of the vast majority of people in India?
Arun - in my experience, unlike the educated the poor and rural population sees modern medicine as upwardly mobile. And they do not have access to practitioners of these pathies. Since long the intellectuals and left politicians have either did not see it or understand it. We all are paying cost for this blind spot. The quacks, the non modern medicine buisness doctors have exploited this horribly. It's only urban and even to some extent rural ellite who are favouring homeopathy or Ayurved in non emergency situation. Recently the political dispensation is pushing Ayurved. But reality has not changed on ground.

2. Maybe that is too general a question, but in the public discourse as well as much scholarship, one often gets the impression that 'people in non-Western regions feel alienated with biomedicine and prefer their own traditional medical methods'. But maybe we need to make a distinction here between biomedicine (as a set of ideas and approaches toward health and sickness) on the one hand, and biomedical practitioners and institutions on the other? What people feel alienated by is perhaps mostly the latter and not generally the former? That could also explain the overwhelming response received by biomedicine-based institutions and practitioners which are genuinely patient- and society-oriented?
Arun – theoritically we may engage in this deliberation. Practically any pathy is what prefered on ground by customers.   Since health care is in the market the sellers and buyers shape the outcome. Not theoritical discussion. So the upward mobility patient in rural areas as well as even ellite in urban uses Liv 52 in infective hepatitis. The pharma company has marketed it to all doctors who have pushed it and has become a part of knowledge of everone. While discussing theoritically we shall not forget the market. 

3. One of the common objections raised to such a framing - that is, if one says that it is not biomedicine at 'fault' but the practitioners and institutions - is the assertion that actually biomedicine (and modern science) are INHERENTLY always going to be alienating and even violent. Do people here think that to be true? Is there even any way to gauge if some non-living, abstract, and tremendously complex and diverse entitity like modern science/medicine is 'inherently' irredeemable?
Arun – the return on investment philosophy, the need for absolute control to achieve it, the technology which glitters while useful, will become violent. Tomorrow if corporate enters in ayurved, and builds hospitals it too will become malignant. Today, since emergency care is in biomedicime we see only it getting violent. Bouncers are around.

4. Finally, does the direction that mainstream Ayurveda has taken in the past 10 years, toward rampant commercialization, exploitation, biopolitical application, discriminatory belittling of marginalized and minority communities, etc, make us rethink some of the past critiques of biomedicine? Do these recent developments show that such type of consequences are less about any inherent attribute of modern science/medicine per se, and perhaps more about just who is in power and how they are appropriating different entities?
Arun - correct

These are just some of the many questions that I myself have been pondering over and grappling with for quite some time. It's wonderful to be able to share them on this amazing platform.

Thank you again for the engagement!
Show quoted text
Thanks Kiran, 

My responses in line..... in red

On Sat, 5 Aug 2023, 09:46 Kiran Kumbhar, <kkb...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello friends,

Thank you very much for reading my article which Akshay shared and for engaging with it in so many productive ways. I would like to thank Akshay for starting this conversation  and for nudging us all to think and articulate.

As Rakhal mentioned, the main issue in the article was the contemporary (past 4-6 yrs or so?) discourse regarding traditional medicine and Ayurveda, including the insincere appropriation of 'decolonial' discourse by Hindu and Brahmanical supremacist groups and influencers.

This dynamic email thread has taken a different but related path, and so I would just like to add to that. Picking up on what Sanjay, Amita, Indira and Arun said, I have some questions in mind, and if people have any thoughts and facts on that, it would be awesome to know more:

1. Do marginalized and underprivileged groups in India really always 'prefer' 'traditional medicine', however defined, over biomedical therapeutic options? Pluralism exists as we all agree, but anthropology and sociology studies show that biomedical therapeutic options are very commonly and voluntarily preferred by people in India from different backgrounds. Can we say that biomedicine has become fully absorbed and assimilated into the cultures and routines of the vast majority of people in India?

rakhal: I don't think the question in practise is that any system is completely preferred. One study in vellore for example showed that rural communities recognized 4 distinct stages in the evolution of TB and chose different systems accordingly. Similarly many studies talk about Cognitive dissonance..... thus every group /individual chooses a system based on a complex set of reasons.... and not only efficacy (something proved in an RCT). However much we may want that or interpret health seeking.


2. Maybe that is too general a question, but in the public discourse as well as much scholarship, one often gets the impression that 'people in non-Western regions feel alienated with biomedicine and prefer their own traditional medical methods'. But maybe we need to make a distinction here between biomedicine (as a set of ideas and approaches toward health and sickness) on the one hand, and biomedical practitioners and institutions on the other? What people feel alienated by is perhaps mostly the latter and not generally the former? That could also explain the overwhelming response received by biomedicine-based institutions and practitioners which are genuinely patient- and society-oriented?

rakhal: I think Indira has covered this in her earlier email.... many of us So called modern medicine practitioners DO feel that the present dominant practise is alienating. This is as much an internal as it is an external debate. As Indira points out my friends in Latin America are talking of - Buen Vivir... a concept difficult to translate into medical terms and into which we enter a little only through Indigenous cosmologies.... and yes this is both an epistemological and ontological question @ASD. And Kiran I think it is both the practitioners and institutions as well as the knowledge base they claim gives them the legitimacy - as Foucault says it is Power/knowledge a single composite word.


3. One of the common objections raised to such a framing - that is, if one says that it is not biomedicine at 'fault' but the practitioners and institutions - is the assertion that actually biomedicine (and modern science) are INHERENTLY always going to be alienating and even violent. Do people here think that to be true? Is there even any way to gauge if some non-living, abstract, and tremendously complex and diverse entitity like modern science/medicine is 'inherently' irredeemable?

rakhal: I think I have covered some of this in my earlier point. As a patient who has undergone long hospitalization and sickness I can vouch for alienation..... as a doctor I can vouch for my constant efforts towards holism.

4. Finally, does the direction that mainstream Ayurveda has taken in the past 10 years, toward rampant commercialization, exploitation, biopolitical application, discriminatory belittling of marginalized and minority communities, etc, make us rethink some of the past critiques of biomedicine? Do these recent developments show that such type of consequences are less about any inherent attribute of modern science/medicine per se, and perhaps more about just who is in power and how they are appropriating different entities?

rakhal: The way I see it these larger systems will use and corrupt and incentivise all institutions and knowledges to reproduce their dominance in such a situation does it really help to differentiate between whether it is inherent or not? That is how people experience it. In a later email Akshay quotes Meera Nanda extensively where she makes this point of differentiating between science and its practise. I find that (in all humility)  quiet brahminical .... this differentiating into a pure essense and its corruption when it touches the world...... but I have to read that again and slowly.... but these are my initial thoughts...

On Sat, 5 Aug, 2023, 9:46 am Kiran Kumbhar, <kkb...@gmail.com> wrote:

jagchat01

2 Oct 2023, 11:54:3902/10/2023
to drarun.gadre, kkbjmc, Mfccircle
What we are essentially discussing now is the corruption in medicine.

What could be the way out?

- Teaching people the basics of health 
- Strictly enforcing the basic determinants of health 
- Doing away with factors that adversely affect health 

Are we ready?

To become health focused we need to come out of many pet concepts;

- Only doctors can ensure health 
- Only qualified modern medicos can ensure health 
- Drugs and surgery are necessary
- The patient has to blindly submit 
- The patient should not complain about loss of health and bankruptcy on account of treatment 

The fact is, good health is a community effort based upon individual responsibility. The doctor is an unwelcome encroacher in this domain.

Why should there be a medical system at all? Why should there be an industry ensuring a 24×7 supply of drugs and devices? Why should people get sick on account of it? Why should people submit to it?

Are we ready to tell the people that they are sick because there is the business of medicine?

Let us start from the dominant system. The others will fall in line. Can we deny that the dominant system with its extreme aggressiveness and reckless medication has created the flow of disease that all the systems are now busy exploiting? If the modern medico is happy with the flow of funds can we blame the others?

Talking of science when are we going to admit that what is being practiced today is based on centuries old theories long debunked? What about studying the advances in medicine and the experience of doctors who are trying out the suggestions of the latest advances and establishing health? Or do we consider them unscientific too?

Was Dr Antoine Bechamp a quack? Was the reformed Dr William Osler a quack? Were those who established the JSA and had high hopes about community health quacks? Is Dr B M Hegde a quack? Are the thousands of doctors who went against WHO diktat and helped people recover in times of Covid quacks? Are the hundreds of MDs who are protesting the WHO Pandemic Treaty quacks? 

Come to think of it, is a person trying to keep himself healthy a quack? Is the body trying to keep itself healthy a quack?

Can we grossly intervene during pregnancy, childbirth, and childhood and still call our efforts scientific? Have we ever studied how the body heals itself, and the role played by the mind and the vitality? Can we have a system of medicine that ignores tens of thousands of years of traditional health wisdom and allow it to dominate?

The unimpeded growth of any organized system of medicine can only take place on the burial ground of health. 

It all boils down to outcomes. It is here that scientific medicine has failed. Making every single person on the planet sick ought not to be the result of perfectly scientific methods. If unable to bear the pain and astronomical costs people are shifting to other methods is it ethical to blame them?

With Rockefeller medicine came the concept of dividing the world of medicine into silos that ought not to be breached. This has cost the world very dear, caused untold suffering, and ensured the flow of money to a new untested experimental system that promised freedom from disease and immortality only to plunge the world into unprecedented health chaos.

This system creates its own science to be delivered by its paid scientists who decide which drug kills less, which method causes less adverse effects and which disease is preferred over another. Health is taboo and forbidden. Can we blame the public who have caught on to the game?

Let us look at public aspirations. They want good health delivered for free. If we are patient friendly we can easily deliver it. But we have to shed our doctors coats and become busy doing what I have suggested in the second paragraph.

Are we ready?

anant.phadke

7 Oct 2023, 16:15:0707/10/2023
to rakhal.gaitonde, ritupriyajnu, kkbjmc, drarun.gadre, Mfccircle, Akshay S Dinesh

 Dear all,

This has been quite an interesting, insightful debate. I did not want to engage with any of the specific points and arguments that were made. However I feel that keeping this discussion in mind, it may not be inappropriate now to make some general points about health, healthcare and health science from a public health perspective.  

I think all these three categories need to be understood as concrete historical entities with their internal contradictions. There is no health, healthcare, health science as such, as abstract entities but all these three have existed in specific historical form, in all the stages of development of human society - hunting, gathering society, in predominantly agricultural feudal society and in modern, capitalist society.  Let me elaborate a little bit the first point about historical nature of these three entities and then about the point about contradictions -

1)            Firstly, the historically concrete forms of these categories. The social determinants of health and consequently health status have been different in these three types of societies. Physical and social milieu in pre modern tribal or feudal societies and modern capitalist society has been quite different. Hence the epidemiological picture of a society of hunters and gatherers and of feudal primarily agriculturalist was vastly different from that of the current industrial, capitalist societies. 

Remedies invented in these societies are bound to be quite different. Remedies by pre-modern therapies cannot be expected to address the current, predominantly new health problems. We cannot expect in folk medicine or Ayurvedic medicine for example, remedies for current occupational health problems or current lifestyle health problems of modern industrial capitalist society. Maybe some pre modern therapies of some kinds can be of some use in some of our temporary symptoms or some age-old problems like osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis. (On a personal note, for the last more than 40 years, I have been using for myself and advising my friends and relatives, along with ORS, a home remedy for simple diarrhea for first 2-3 days–“methya” (fenugreek seeds) granules to be roasted and then powdered –a quarter teaspoon three times a day. Along with other measures, I have been advising “Adulsa” syrup to facilitate sputum liquefaction in a productive cough.)  Yoga can be of some help in some of the modern health problems. Placebo effect and pre-placebo or 'Hawthorne Effect' (the feeling that one is being treated) are quite important even in the modern era as a contributory factor in the relief that patients get. But at the same time, as a matter of course, the basic causes like pollution, unhealthy job conditions, unhealthy life-styles including domestic violence, needs to be tackled simultaneously. Given the overall epidemiological picture in India, of rising epidemic of diabetes, hypertension, premature cardio-vascular problems, depression, stress-induced and pollution induced occupational health problems, premature malignancies, iatrogenic health problems etc etc there cannot a big role for pre-modern therapies in today’s world because they evolved to address by and large, very different sets and types of health challenges.

Modern health science consists of epidemiologically driven preventive, promotive, curative/ symptomatic measures both at individual and social level as well as rehabilitative measures. All these are based on modern biology, modern chemistry and other whole range of modern sciences and technologies based on these sciences. Hence modern health science is bound to be superior, more effective to deal with modern health problems of the current capitalist world system.

Pre-modern health care interventions like folk remedies, the systematic approach like the Ayurveda in feudal India (I do not know about Unani approach) and the approach of the modern “allopathic” system are vastly different. Yet, all of us modernists should be interested in explorations in pre-modern therapies (excluding those remedies based on superstitious beliefs) from a research perspective to find out which of these are effective and safe in today’s world. Secondly, even today, traditional ideas about health and disease very much influence a vast number of people and a study of these can tell us whether and how any of these can be harnessed in our approach to health problems in our society.

All of this has to be done certainly not with any arrogance or paternalistic attitude but with an approach of humble scientists knowing that our ancestors were as much intelligent, creative as the modern humans are, even though the means at their command were very limited. Secondly in pre-modern sciences belief in supernatural powers, god was intermixed with empirical hypothesis (for example, concept of “Tridosh” in Ayurveda) which was tested with empirical observations. Yet, folk medicines or Aurveda is largely based on a materialist approach and is not premised on existence of god/supernatural forces. There were proto-sciences and not be kept aside thinking them to be mere beliefs without any empirical, logical basis. We should try to find out what we can learn from these therapies even though they cannot be expected to play a large role in today’s world. At the same time, we cannot be oblivious of the fact that dominant casteist, brahmhinical patriarchal ideology in feudalism also affected these health care interventions.

2)            Secondly we need to understand the internal contradictions of these entities and their dynamics – For example, we all know that medicines have desirable and undesirable effects and as is widely known, the balance between the two becomes unfavorable if these medicines are unnecessarily or excessively or wrongly used. The latter scenario is because of the money/profit orientation which predominates over rational use (driven by honesty and adherence to science of clinical medicine.) There is therefore no point in talking only about the science and technology of modern medicines as such without taking into consideration the dominant commercialization, corporatization of healthcare. Iatrogenic health damage by allopathic practitioners (including those who hold non-allopathic degrees but engage in unrestricted use of allopathic medicines) in India has been a great problem and needs a separate discussion. Modern medicine is also adversely affected by varying degrees, capitalist patriarchy. The unique feature of capitalist patriarchy is to use the woman's body as one more ground for unnecessary medication and surgery for commercial, profit-hungry entities.

Given the above situation the issue is not merely to assess modern medicine as such but to assess it in it’s concrete historical form in which it exists and to grasp its internal contradictions. Taking note of this contradiction, we need to look forward to and try to foster modern medicine stripped of its profit-hungryness unlike Evan Ilich, the author of Medical Nemesis or the anti-vaccine lobby which rejects vaccination.   

Not only the practice of modern medicine but also the science of modern medicine is one the one hand promoted by the profit-hungry of corporations as they invest huge amounts for research and of course for production of medicines and their propagation. But on the contrary, the ill-effects of this profit-hungriness on the very development of beneficial, least harmful, cost-effective medical interventions is well known. The way forward is to understand this contradiction, its dynamics and put forth, work for measures to move ahead by transcending this contradiction.

Similar is the case with the contradictions in the socio-economic structure, which shape social determinants of health and ill-health. In capitalism the unprecedented development of social production has shaped social determinants of health and ill-health in a vastly different way. Thus in today’s advanced capitalism, (which dominates in India also) on the one hand, the potential for occupational injuries and other health-insults in all stages of production and consumption has increased vastly. At the same time, the technology to prevent these health-insults and to create healthy working conditions as well as the S&T for it, has also developed a great deal. Which of these two contradictory possibilities predominates depends upon the balance of power between the capitalists and the working class, the people. In this case also the way forward is to understand this contradiction, its dynamics and put forth, work for measures to move ahead by transcending this contradiction.

In a sense, there is nothing new in what I have said above. But I thought that it may be worthwhile to revisit it in the context of the interesting, insightful recent debate on the MFC e Forum.

Anant Phadke  

 

 




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With Regards,
Sincerely Yours,
 
Anant
 
Anant and Sandhya Phadke,
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